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Im a bundle of contradictions! My opinions vary depending on the time of month but have been consistent since i learnt to think. Words i associate with me: dream vision justice peace aerodynamic happiness sensual cynicism idealism antiquated socialism solitude secularism simmer solipsism brightness rain mother earth independence dance fulfilment solitude utopia blue pink moonlight luscious ishq

Monday, October 31, 2005

Marriage and Pre-nuptial Agreements in India

Sounds like Love and Longing in Las Vegas doesn't it? Well, it ISN'T!

So there's a debate going on in India about whether pre-nuptial agreements should be legalised or not. I suppose in one way its a blessing - many men and women who have suffered loveless, abusive marriages will agree that divorce is a great thing and that this agreement will, if not amicably, at least cleanly settle material and custodial issues. I suppose India must change with the times, and I'm clearly being idealistic here, but it looks like India, and the rest of global society, is changing in a way that's destructive to organised society. Not that that's a bad thing if it would bring about a socio-cultural revolution that would cleanse society of its resident evils of discrimination, crime and dishonesty. I often regret that communism and socialism turned out to be failed experiments. They were based on noble ideals. The politics and instincts of man defeat much of what is God-like *wistful face*. I don't mean to be preachy, and you are certainly right to argue about who exactly has constructed these ideals and institutions that I value. I support the breakdown of restrictive and exclusivist traditions that do not allow freedom beyond limited parameters, but also think that some sort of backbone of unbiased basic norms and rights would be beneficial upon which to base future decisions regarding the direction which society should take.

Oh, this is such a load of bullshit! There HAS to be a solution that's not spacey and subjective!

Anyway, back to marriage, divorce and contracts in India. We all like to think that marriage was much better in the good old days, though we gasp in horror at the social evils that existed till the late 18th century of dowry, sati and female infanticide. Unfortunately, today, in so-called modern times, not much has changed. Female infanticide still occurs through abortions, baby abandonment in garbage dumps, dowry occurs under the guise of the customary 'security for the daughter', brides are killed, not at their husband's pyres, but in their kitchens with kerosene. All because of two major crimes these women have committed: not enough money, and their sex. Maybe the custom in Pakistan makes more sense - marry your daughter into a family less rich than you so that you have some control over it.

India, being a secular, democratic republic, does not have a uniform civil code. There is a separate Hindu, Muslim (my God there are 3 different ones!), Zoroastrian and Special Marriages Act. Oh, there's ALSO a Christian, an Arya and an Indian Divorce Act which looks the oldest - 1869!!! Wow, I'm amazed! Each of them has separate conditions under which a couple can seek divorce. Interestingly I found that a woman could apply for divorce under the Hindu Marriage Act if her husband is guilty of rape, sodomy or bestiality (I thought there was no claude regarding abuse). A parsi woman can apply for divorce if her husband prositutes her. A Muslim woman can apply for divorce if her husband obstructs her from performing her religious practice. I think that's great. Religion is such an intrinsic part of our lives, and some women have to give up the beliefs and rituals of their parental home to fit in with their husbands'... that's a basic human right that sometimes gets disregarded. Fascinating stuff.

Anyway, the introduction of a pre-nuptial agreement seems, more than the divorce acts, to make null and void the very principle upon which marriage is based - that it's for keeps (oh my, quite an appropriate pun here!). I know I'm being naive, but why get into something when you create an option to get out of it for yourself? That, automatically and subconsciously, creates a lower threshold of tolerance for you in your marriage. When you give yourself the option to leave, you will. Simple as that. Of course, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't leave if you are ill-treated. Maybe the situation in which 'love conquers all' doesn't exist anymore because no one sticks around long enough to prove it right? Or all these are saying invented by smart men to keep women believing in them so they can get their material comforts nicely organised? Pffft.

I mean, according to me, the simple logical solution for when one splits up is that each leaves with what each came with. That will stop the women marrying men for money. But if they married for love? Of course that puts the financially better-off person in a better position to dictate terms... and with regard to any child involved, each parent woudl spend an equal proportion of resources on the child, rather than any actual figure. So for example, if the child is in custody of one parent, who is spending 50% of his/her resources on the child, the other parent is required to do the same. Of course, that's unfair and problematic if one person has a load of black money and the poor person's money is all clean.

I wonder how I'd react if the man I marry would want to sign a contract with me. I think I'd slap him, for the reason given above. I don't want to marry to divorce. I'd rather break an engagement if he turns ugly or stay single. I may not be in love the way young people are in love forever, but it'd be nice to have someone to talk to, who understands you and needs you and you need them - just for little things like the simple pleasure of having you around, knowing each other's scents and quirks and taste and texture, little acts of consideration. I wouldn't marry him if my family or I thought he was marrying me for any reason other than that he simply liked/loved ME, and that's a consideration beyond comparison with any other. I just pray that i am kept away from such dastardly types.

It's essentially a question of playing fair and honest which most people don't unfortunately do. There are many self-serving reasons that people marry. And women are conditioned to marry for social and financial security. That's a problem with the system. Of course every woman wants to marry better when she is earning 75 cents to the man's dollar, (or in the case of black women, 66 cents to the white man's dollar). Money makes the world go round these days. But then, if people played fair, divorces wouldn't happen in the first place, would they?

21 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am not a big fan of pre-nups in all honesty.

Pre-nup to me seems like a problem with trust (I realize this is simplistic but im not trying to generalize). IF you don't have enough trust in each other/relationship then why take it a step ahead on shaky grounds?

And I don't feel comfortable with the idea of starting a marriage with "mera- tera" already in action [pre-nup].

Just my thoughts.

2:18 am  
Blogger Princess Joya said...

Thanks Dee. This is exactly what i'm trying to say that people don't buy. The PRINCIPLE of marriage is trust and security and that psychological mattress is automatically taken away from you and you are left with a thin sheet of prenup contract and the bare floor, or, more likely, a gaping hole. But people are stupid - the solution is under their own nose and they look westwards.

2:34 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

West shmest.

Although I have to say, I am quite surprised to hear that pre-nups are being contemplated there [India]. I'd expect this to be on a very small scale and probably restricted to upper middle class and upwards.

I wonder if this more of a response to 'resolve' problems [messy divorce settlements?] or just another one of those attempts to be 'trendy'.

4:46 am  
Blogger Princess Joya said...

I think it is so far. The debate realy started with Natassha Madhvani's father insisting on a prenup before her marriage to Fardeen Khan. Though it may just become prevalent in the professional middle classes - those who live away from home in big cities. It's the middle class girls after all, who it is believed are attracted to the NRI/green card type of guy, who incidentally believes he has some natural right to dowry or greater demands from the girl. Sad.

11:33 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well this is the first time I've heard of Fardeen's wedding , clueless Bollywood-ignorant me.

I feel a bit skeptical about this making it big in middle class because from my understanding, the bride/bride's family isn't in a good position to negotiate. And I don't see why the groom would need it considering the boy's side usually calls the shots anyway [typically].

Also, I wonder if pre-nups can be used to dodge anti-dowry laws.

9:33 am  
Blogger Princess Joya said...

Hmmm... how do you think?
In that dowry could be justified as long as there's a contract in place for the distribution of goods provided as dowry if the marriage dissolves?
Dowry still exists, in its euphemistic voluntary avatar... in the things it's customary to give your daughter so she's not in an uncomfortable position if she needs anything. Doesn't have to be osmething big like a car, but a profusion of articles ranging from towels and combs and thread to silverware and jewellery.
Typically what tends to happen is that the jewellery and things the bride brings with her are used to supply the trousseau of her husband's sister. So it's a vicious circle. More than one life gets ruined in this distribution process.
We simply need to stop placing so much emphasis on the material side of marriage and concentrate on the person herself. How hard is it for the mother-in-law to provide everything a woman needs for her daughter-in-law? And even if the couple is living separately, how hard is it for the husband to develop some common sense about the basic amenities his wife requires?

10:52 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"In that dowry could be justified as long as there's a contract in place for the distribution of goods provided as dowry if the marriage dissolves?"

Yes. It might give false sense of assurance that the bride's "security" in the form of dowry will remain intact. It might also be a way to dodge anti-dowry laws. By calling it an agreement, it gives the idea that the dowry is being brought in as part of the bride's belongings and not due to a demand from the groom's side.

I don't think it is as much as dowry but ways to maintain the right of the groom/groom's family to ask for it that is troublesome.

Parents/relatives of the bride have a right to present the bride with whatever they wish and its really their business. It is a problem when it is under compulsion, direct [outright demands] or indirect[ "traditional" practices/rituals].

I think that to an extend the laws can prohibit the direct demands but, as Im sure most people would agree with, it is a change in attitude in society as a whole that would do away with the indirect methods.

You're right about focus on materialistic aspects. Marriages will need to be distanced from "status" and expectations for over-the-top wedding affairs need to be brought down by several notches.

12:34 am  
Blogger Princess Joya said...

Dowry is actually a corrupted form of Vardakshina (voluntary gift to groom) or Stridhan (woman's wealth), that the bride's father gives according to his own wishes. Dowry has been prohibited now, and most families SAY they want nothing but the girl, but you know that they expect something given the girl's own status or whatever. And nowadays parents do it to 'buy' literally (though they don't put it that way!) their daughter's security and status in her new home, because they know she will be treated better when everyone is gifted things by her family than if they were not. That doesn't generally stop them from being burnt alive as on the other hand, greed can increase.
Humans are sometimes simply cannibals.

1:09 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The bit about status reminds me of a Keralite 'tradition' I was told about wherein the dowry is displayed and is first seen by the bride's relatives and then the groom's relatives.

It was described as a very formal affair.Clearly its a status issue if the bride's relatives are also checking it out on DISPLAY.

10:08 am  
Blogger Princess Joya said...

yeah... there's one among gujaratis too. Rather vulgar I think. Just creates jealousy and the evil eye you know?

10:39 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Definitely. I think it sours the blessings and good wishes due to the new couple. Just so unecessary and artificial to drag wealth into a festive occassion.

And it is maddening to try to reason with staunch believers of dowry. I had a frustrating time with a Keralite teacher because she insisted that my friend and I were 'naive' for believing dowry will not be involved in OUR marriages.
Even though we made it clear our grandparents did not ask or bring dowries and it is taboo in our respective communities. This attitude despite her being a Christian mother of two girls.

Its interesting to note that Greeks also have a system of dowry wherein the bride's father is expected to present the new couple with a HOUSE.

6:07 pm  
Blogger Princess Joya said...

People like to talk about and stick to what they know... any kind of change upsets an established, internalised order of things. What community are you? In my relatively narrow experience, the euphemism for dowry is definitely practiced.
Yeah, I saw that in the Big Fat Greek Wedding. Cute movie. I didn't know it was expected though. Well, they don't spend much on jewellery and clothing and gifts to people like we do here :)

10:32 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm from this little known Kayastha community.

I think my Greek friend's family is very traditional hence the dowry because it seems uncommon in the disaporic Greek communities. And rightly so!

4:54 pm  
Blogger Princess Joya said...

Ahhh, I have heard (read?) about Kayastha Brahmins maximum through those matrimonial classified ads! What are they? Where are they from? etc. I'm fascinated by all this albeit mindboggled at the complexity of our social structure and memes.

2:33 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Funny you say brahmins because we don't quite fit the varna system! We usually don't refer to ourselves as brahmins either.

From what I know, Kayasthas were formed when it was realized the varna system lacked a division for administration, accounts, finances and the like.
Ironically, today most Kayasthas are engineers, doctors, dentists or some other Science-related profession but few of them are into Commerce/Management/Accounts.

So a mixture of Brahmins and Kshatriyas were brought together and thus became Kayasthas. So we have a dual caste: Kashtriya AND Brahmin not either or.

From my experience and knowledge, we don't identify as Brahmins only. Infact it's usually difficult to explain which of the 4 we 'fit' into because most of us don't identify with any. Maybe some people use it to make it easier to explain?

We're a Hindi speaking community really and are primarily from UP, Uttaranchal, MP [and its divisions of course], Bihar [though most of the families moved out decades ago for obvious reasons] as well as parts of Rajasthan. We are mostly from the northern regions which used to be the residences of Kings and the Mughal rulers, as they would be the ones with the use for our skills and expertise.

Also some Kayasthas moved to parts of Maharashtra and Karnataka that were under a common rule [not very good with history of that region]. However, we don't really have a link with them. nothing deliberate really but I think the language difference must have become an issue not to mention isolation of sorts from the rest of the community based in the north. I believe the ones down south identify as Brahmins [sometimes as Kayastha brahmins but rarely].

Usually people with last names such as Mathur,Shrivastava,Saxena, Tawakley, Bachhan, Sinha, Bhatnagar, Nigam, Asthana are Kayasthas however Verma and Sinha are found in some other communities as well I believe. Overall there are 12 subsects but marriages between the 12 are very fluid and the separation is not enforced or believed in. Infact I wasn't aware of the subsects until I read about it somewhere.

We're extremely obssessed with education and this is usually reflected in marriage proposals [since you mentioned matrimony]- I've noticed we're not as particular about the physical appearance of the bride as we are about the degrees attained and universities attended. Of course the physical aspect isn't completely ruled out but we're not big on it overall from my experience.

I keep discovering new communities myself! It ties in a lot of history and I think that makes it a fascinating read :).

Hope this helped!

4:26 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Err sorry about the length of the comment- didn't realize it was as long as that!

4:33 am  
Blogger Princess Joya said...

Wow! Thanks! I wish I knew that much about Gujjus! But wouldn't you say Kayasthas are normally fair and hence they don't really care about the physical aspect? (Since most Indians don't realy care about looks and symmetry as long as the skin colour is light). Please forgive my ignorance.
Oooh the education aspect sounds like GSB (God-Saraswat Brahmins!). What about norms regarding working women?

4:51 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually Kayasthas aren't all that fair in my opinion. We're more like a wheatish/wheatish-fair mix. We do have the "kashmiri" fair people yes but I'd say the majority is towards wheatish and we do have the more visibly brown skin tones as well. Since the average skin tone is around wheatish as long you're there [given you are well educated regardless of your gender] you're good to go.

Having said that, if you're very well educated then your skin colour won't be an issue [for most of us anyway] and this goes for men and women but being fairer would be like a 'bonus'.

Working women- i think class does play a role here but say we restrict it to middle class and above.

With my parents generation, the expectation was of a good education and some kind of talent [usually expected more from the women than the men] along with familiarity of household chores to an extent. Typically non-working - but we knew a lot of Kayastha Aunties working as doctors and teachers. For their generation as long as the children were not neglected and the job met the community's idea of respectable, working women were usually not an issue but class and region of residence do play a role here.

Now, working women are a given and infact all my cousin sisters are working. Usually women take off during pregnancy and until the kids reach nursery, unless there are family members like the grandparents willing and able to help out. I'd say today we're really very supportive of career-oriented women and parents would prefer if their daughters would put their education to use outside of the home/family.
But while household responsibilities may have been reduced drastically, bulk of the childcare is still the responsibility of the women. I think that is something my age group needs to work on.

One of my really close friends is a Saraswat Brahmin and we can relate to the education obssession and the stress we deal with. I didn't consider the similarities in this light prior to your comment and it makes me wonder if there is any close history there!

I didn't know the history of the community as we're not big on narrating that- as long we follow our education/work ethic we're content. I had to research and ask countless questions. Coincidentally, the research was spurred by my Gujjus friends questions about my background and my inability to answer them!
I am told Patels also have a background of accounts and finances but I find it difficult to follow since Patels don't form a community but are supposed to be mix from different ones.

I'm making a bold remark here but you look like you're from around the Kachh region to me [had lots of friends from that region]. Just curious to know if I'm right and if you don't mind my asking you so :)

5:00 am  
Blogger Princess Joya said...

Thanks! yeah... i was wondering if maybe GSB's were one of the subsects or whatever. And technically inn Hinduism you're supposed to marry out of your gothra aren't you???? (even if its endogamous).
I'm gujarati, not kutchhi. Ahmedabad/Sidpur/Gadh.
I think in Gujaratis, the Mehtas are traditionally accountants. Maybe Patels also, and there is some other surname... for Maharashtra it's Kulkarnis. Not really sure though about other last names!

10:39 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't quite know what the gothra is all about. Maybe we don't follow it ?!

Gothra is something I'd have to look up first.

8:00 am  
Blogger Princess Joya said...

I think gothra means clan or lineage or something. I know this because i had an Iyengar friend who mentioned it once. So you'd have to marry outside your clan. But I think that means that you can marry your cousin if its the son of a father or mother's sister, since they marry into another clan. I don't know though so don't take my word for it... just exploring patriarchal ideas of lineage here.

11:19 pm  

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